Comments on: A less than perfect human nature http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/ Random musings in a variety of subjects, from science to religion. Wed, 27 Jan 2010 00:10:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: chungyc http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-337 chungyc Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-337 <blockquote>If there is any disagreement in a commune, it can easily be decided democratically.</blockquote> How can this be done without bogging everything down in red tape? Disagreements are not going to be uncommon at all. Should a city council meeting be held for every single issue? What about disagreements between communes (however large they might be)? What about possible tyranny by majority? Do we want all the politics and drama that goes on in democracies all around the world for every issue that arises? Turnout is low enough as it is: should every disagreement be handled by those few who bother to participate in the decision process?

If there is any disagreement in a commune, it can easily be decided democratically.

How can this be done without bogging everything down in red tape? Disagreements are not going to be uncommon at all. Should a city council meeting be held for every single issue? What about disagreements between communes (however large they might be)? What about possible tyranny by majority? Do we want all the politics and drama that goes on in democracies all around the world for every issue that arises? Turnout is low enough as it is: should every disagreement be handled by those few who bother to participate in the decision process?

]]> By: chungyc http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-338 chungyc Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-338 What if nobody is making it? Or what if the people making it don't make enough? What if nobody is making it? Or what if the people making it don't make enough?

]]> By: chungyc http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-341 chungyc Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-341 I don't go through the manufacture process that goes into my clothes. I don't dig up sand and put it through a complex process to create bricks and build my own home. I don't collect the seeds, till land, and harvest plants to produce my own food. I don't handle my own shit except for the very beginning. I don't go through all of the work that goes into networking computers and generating electricity to power them. Etc., etc. There are <em>far</em> more many things I rely upon others than I do myself. I did go through your series thinking that I may have been missing something, but I didn't see anything about societal chores nobody wants to do. I may have missed it somehow ... I don't go through the manufacture process that goes into my clothes. I don't dig up sand and put it through a complex process to create bricks and build my own home. I don't collect the seeds, till land, and harvest plants to produce my own food. I don't handle my own shit except for the very beginning. I don't go through all of the work that goes into networking computers and generating electricity to power them. Etc., etc. There are far more many things I rely upon others than I do myself.

I did go through your series thinking that I may have been missing something, but I didn't see anything about societal chores nobody wants to do. I may have missed it somehow …

]]> By: db0 http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-342 db0 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-342 Once again it depends on what you want to achieve. If everyone wants a super-cool car (and this is relevant for the super-cool cars of yesteryear are sucky today) then they can pool resources and focus on making more factories and better machines for making cool cars. Then slowly super-cool cars can be given out as they come, say from a queue people joined to get one. But you're getting in very hypothetical questions I believe in order to find cracks. Communism does not have everything foreseen for this is simply impossible. However under communism you have the capability to find the solutions in the problems that occur. Think of Wikipedia. It started out without almost any rules but it has now created the rules to fix the problems it has faced when they came up. The same will happen to Communism. The people faced with the problem will sit together and think of the solution. To throw scenarios at my single brain and expect that I can always give you the best answer to your satisfaction is simply impossible. Once again it depends on what you want to achieve. If everyone wants a super-cool car (and this is relevant for the super-cool cars of yesteryear are sucky today) then they can pool resources and focus on making more factories and better machines for making cool cars. Then slowly super-cool cars can be given out as they come, say from a queue people joined to get one.

But you're getting in very hypothetical questions I believe in order to find cracks. Communism does not have everything foreseen for this is simply impossible. However under communism you have the capability to find the solutions in the problems that occur. Think of Wikipedia. It started out without almost any rules but it has now created the rules to fix the problems it has faced when they came up.

The same will happen to Communism. The people faced with the problem will sit together and think of the solution. To throw scenarios at my single brain and expect that I can always give you the best answer to your satisfaction is simply impossible.

]]> By: db0 http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-343 db0 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-343 <blockquote>I don't go through the manufacture process that goes into my clothes.[...]I rely upon others than I do myself.</blockquote> I never said you didn't, and these are all jobs that people will choose to to. The ones that nobody wants to do (say, sewer duty) can easily be assigned by agreed shifts or any other way, similar to how a household does its chores. Also do not forget that because of the dissolution of the state and the army, there will be a huge amount of extra people who will be contributing to the work. The "chores" of the society would be quite minimal in time. <blockquote>but I didn't see anything about societal chores nobody wants to do. I may have missed it somehow ... </blockquote> <a href="http://dbzer0.com/blog/misunderstanding-communism-its-not-anti-individualism" target="_blank">Sixth and Seventh Paragraph</a>

I don't go through the manufacture process that goes into my clothes.[...]I rely upon others than I do myself.

I never said you didn't, and these are all jobs that people will choose to to. The ones that nobody wants to do (say, sewer duty) can easily be assigned by agreed shifts or any other way, similar to how a household does its chores. Also do not forget that because of the dissolution of the state and the army, there will be a huge amount of extra people who will be contributing to the work.

The "chores" of the society would be quite minimal in time.

but I didn't see anything about societal chores nobody wants to do. I may have missed it somehow …

Sixth and Seventh Paragraph

]]> By: db0 http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-345 db0 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-345 <blockquote>Can I get a reference? </blockquote> <a href="http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/origin-family/index.htm " target="_blank">http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/o...</a>

Can I get a reference?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1884/o...

]]> By: db0 http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-346 db0 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-346 This wasn't because reason was in shorter supply in the past. Humans have not changed biologically at all in the civilization years. The reason why reason seems not to have been used to much is because of the way these societies were build, what their production was and how they competed with each other. The enemy of reason is not faith, it is starvation and pain. When people have to struggle daily for life, they do not have time for intellectualism or knowledge and this was the standard situation in the ancient world. This is why the intellectual people were always the rich or well-off. The only bright example to this was Epicurus who managed to find the way to be intellectual even while poor. We become more reasonable the more easy our life is, and communism makes life easy for everyone. This wasn't because reason was in shorter supply in the past. Humans have not changed biologically at all in the civilization years. The reason why reason seems not to have been used to much is because of the way these societies were build, what their production was and how they competed with each other. The enemy of reason is not faith, it is starvation and pain. When people have to struggle daily for life, they do not have time for intellectualism or knowledge and this was the standard situation in the ancient world. This is why the intellectual people were always the rich or well-off. The only bright example to this was Epicurus who managed to find the way to be intellectual even while poor.

We become more reasonable the more easy our life is, and communism makes life easy for everyone.

]]> By: db0 http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-347 db0 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-347 <blockquote>To who? </blockquote> The people who make it of course :) <blockquote>If someone wants gasoline, will there be enough people willing to go through the sometimes life-threatening risks of drilling for oil?</blockquote> You're confusing the product with the method. The product in the case is energy, and the method is gasoline (which comes through drilling). If the risk of getting the product is too high, people will either decide it's not worth it (ie, if the risk of making teddy bears was life-threatening, people would probably learn to live without teddy bears), or simply find other ways to make it. In your scenario, because the risk of drilling is too large, not only for the drillers but also because of the effects of oil burning, people would have the incentive to work towards alternative energy sources.

To who?

The people who make it of course :)

If someone wants gasoline, will there be enough people willing to go through the sometimes life-threatening risks of drilling for oil?

You're confusing the product with the method. The product in the case is energy, and the method is gasoline (which comes through drilling). If the risk of getting the product is too high, people will either decide it's not worth it (ie, if the risk of making teddy bears was life-threatening, people would probably learn to live without teddy bears), or simply find other ways to make it.

In your scenario, because the risk of drilling is too large, not only for the drillers but also because of the effects of oil burning, people would have the incentive to work towards alternative energy sources.

]]> By: chungyc http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-348 chungyc Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-348 Even running my little computer right in front of me involved an awfully lot of people. A gazillion people all clamor for their share of electricity from a very small number of groups. Sending information packets across the sea involves a lot of groups and geographies as they have to negotiate who is going to create the infrastructure and how bandwidth is allocated. And that doesn't even go into the mining of raw resources and manufacturing effort to build all that infrastructure. The space occupied by my computer has to be negotiated by a lot of people; everyone wants to be able to use more land, but there's far too little of it. And I can go on. How is this democracy supposed to work? How are we supposed to know exactly which people are directly affected? Even agreeing on this might have to go through bitter politics. Have you really thought out how things would work from start to finish to get even a single networked computer? Even running my little computer right in front of me involved an awfully lot of people. A gazillion people all clamor for their share of electricity from a very small number of groups. Sending information packets across the sea involves a lot of groups and geographies as they have to negotiate who is going to create the infrastructure and how bandwidth is allocated. And that doesn't even go into the mining of raw resources and manufacturing effort to build all that infrastructure. The space occupied by my computer has to be negotiated by a lot of people; everyone wants to be able to use more land, but there's far too little of it. And I can go on.

How is this democracy supposed to work? How are we supposed to know exactly which people are directly affected? Even agreeing on this might have to go through bitter politics. Have you really thought out how things would work from start to finish to get even a single networked computer?

]]> By: db0 http://blog.chungyc.org/2008/11/a-less-than-perfect-human-nature/comment-page-1/#comment-349 db0 Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:50:05 +0000 http://blog.chungyc.org/?p=1235#comment-349 Why would it mean "no" of any of those things. Communism means simply that the workers of each of those industries start reaping the rewards of their own labour. It does not mean to built it by scratch. These industries would continue working as before, each supplying the material for the next. If there isn't enough copper to go around there will be a demand and more people will join in copper extraction or create better machines to extract more. If your argument is that people might not want to go and work in the copper mine and thus we will have less production than necessarily, you admit that the only reason people work in a copper mine now is because they will starve. Thus you are OK with them being coerced with starvation so that you may have a computer. Do not misunderstand your current position for the position of the rest of the world. Yes you have a lot of comfort in your life but for this, a lot of others have none. Realise that the only reason you have this computer is because others have only a bed. Why would it mean "no" of any of those things. Communism means simply that the workers of each of those industries start reaping the rewards of their own labour. It does not mean to built it by scratch.
These industries would continue working as before, each supplying the material for the next.

If there isn't enough copper to go around there will be a demand and more people will join in copper extraction or create better machines to extract more. If your argument is that people might not want to go and work in the copper mine and thus we will have less production than necessarily, you admit that the only reason people work in a copper mine now is because they will starve. Thus you are OK with them being coerced with starvation so that you may have a computer.

Do not misunderstand your current position for the position of the rest of the world. Yes you have a lot of comfort in your life but for this, a lot of others have none. Realise that the only reason you have this computer is because others have only a bed.

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